Need more info.

Talk about Sacrament's raids, share your strats, throw out ideas, etc.
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Neosolidus
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Need more info.

Postby Neosolidus » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:46 am

FIrst, I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade!

In my opinion you should have waited until more mechanics of the game are known before bringing the raid contest on.
With the lack of information that we have we can't really come up with sophisticated ideas because basically we don't know what will be driving them.

We need some sort of design vision(goal) for CC ,Roles, Raid Players, Location and time goal.

CC : so far all you have said is that you want to have CC be a part of the content but how big can it be, can we really use it to an extend that CC is equally important to DPS,healer or tanks?
Can we make it so that you need more CC than actual DPSers(blasphemy I know)?

Roles: As before do you intend to follow the traditional roles break down (1Tank : 1Healer : 2DPS : 0.5 CC) the mechanics of the raid will solely depend on the "ideal best group" that you can have on it.
There is no point in me designing a raid that requires 6 CCs when you are only planning on having 2 at most or when you design goal is to zerg away ESO style.

Raid players: we need a guideline for how many people you want the encounter to be geared towards 20? 25? 30? 35? etc etc

Location: Open world OK, single boss instance(does not mean only one NPC there) or part of a complete raid.

Time goal: I know that time of the fight is determined by how much DPS you do and we are not talking numbers here but we need a goal in mind so we can sort of picture how many mechanics,stages we can incorporate in the fight. Designing a 5 minutes fight is totally different from designing a 10 minute fight, is not just "double what you did for the 5min).

Without these kind of guide lines we are just wasting time and just spewing unrealistic nonsense in my opinion.

I would hate to take the time to create a raid/boss fight just to find out that your internal design goal makes 50% of my ideas completely worthless therefore wasting my time.

Like they say, don't draw your weapon lightly but if you draw shoot to kill.
Is not that I try to be mean, I just don't care to "baby" people's feelings
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Ahdora
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Re: Need more info.

Postby Ahdora » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:12 am

This is why we're asking for ideas, not with numbers and fully fleshed-out specific mechanics. This could be a main boss encounter, a pre-boss encounter, or just an idea for a raid zone in general, or an open world raid-targeting event.

We've written up some 40+ raid scenarios ourselves, all of which will have the numbers and mechanics tweaked during implementation and testing.

Some things to keep in mind: our raids will be quite varied. You have free reign in this purely idea-driven contest to be as off-the-wall as you'd like. Things like how many players your raid scenario would take are up to you. Yes, CC and Support can (and are, in many of our own scenarios) equally important to DPS. We have very few pure DPS-check fights. Yes, you can create your raid so that more CC than DPS would make the fight exponentially easier to complete, but since we have more DPS roles than CC roles overall, it would be more realistic to set it up so that while more CC can clear it more quickly, it can still be done with an equal or lesser number.

Our raids are very mechanic-heavy. They're not zergfest style raids.

The time goal is dependent entirely on what kind of scenario you're presenting.

I get where you're coming from, but you're overthinking this. We're asking for players to share their ideas. Just that, ideas. Not fully fleshed out raids with all of the numbers in place. That will come later. This is just an opportunity for people to present their ideas and have them implemented in the game.
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"Each player must accept the cards life deals him or her, but once they are in hand, he or she alone must decide how to play the cards in order to win the game." ~Voltaire
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Neosolidus
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Re: Need more info.

Postby Neosolidus » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:42 am

Your version of overthinking it is my version of barely having a basic fight.

When I introduce something like this then I am over thinking it. anyways i will just sit this round out.
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Is not that I try to be mean, I just don't care to "baby" people's feelings
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Ahdora
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Re: Need more info.

Postby Ahdora » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:00 am

Neosolidus wrote:Your version of overthinking it is my version of barely having a basic fight.

When I introduce something like this then I am over thinking it. anyways i will just sit this round out.
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Basic idea is really what we are after. The idea will be taken and written into a full raid.

But that's fine! Many more community contests are to come in the future. :D
Co-Founder

"Each player must accept the cards life deals him or her, but once they are in hand, he or she alone must decide how to play the cards in order to win the game." ~Voltaire
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Layenem
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Re: Need more info.

Postby Layenem » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:52 am

Dear Neo,

You are suffering from what I like to call "Basic MMORPG Syndrome". This isn't your fault. Honestly, it isn't.

My recommendations are as follows:

STOP trying to fit everything into a box. This was NEVER the intent of fantasy anything... actually, fantasy is specifically about being so far outside of the box the idea of it never being possible in real life is paramount... otherwise it isn't fantasy.

STOP trying to find "the best" or "the ideal"... I KNOW... I know! How many games have said cliches like "we'll have no ideal build" or "you can make the group up of whatever you want"... okay that second one was made up, no one has ever said that because they ALWAYS had an idea. However, every single raid is going to be different. If you're looking for a 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS, 1 CC, 1 Support outline then you're hurting yourself. You don't have to build raids around specific outlines like that... fuck that. Build the GROUPS around the requirements from each raid.

ENJOY the creative portions of your mind. Honestly. You're never going to get the information that you're asking for from us in this regard because we weight the ENTIRE GAME on the balance of the raid mechanics, not the raid group. Seriously. Wykkyd recently created a logarithm that allows us to remove the basic bullshit stats off of items and weapons, provide value to ALL TIER items, and increased value to higher tier items and higher skill levels to use those items.

I can see that you're a theorycrafter. I absolutely respect that. One of my biggest issues as a person is that I am highly analytical. It's great in business and daily life choices... but when it comes to enjoying a video game it becomes a bit of a burden... but I have to know when to relax that part of my mind and let the creative and fun seeking aspects of my mind take over. There are a lot of us like that and it's even harder to enjoy the creative and fun seeking aspects of our minds because we've been burned so many times over the past decade and we're fucking tired of it.

Tell you what... I'll release two of our raids very soon here (I don't think two is going to be an issue at all) so you can see how we are building raids. You'll find a few things are true:

1) There is no basic format for the raids... that bores people horribly and becomes a repetitive and bland process. FUCK THAT!

2) They don't even CONSIDER how other raids function... and why should they? Does your house function with consideration to how some other persons house functions? No. You're your own person and you do your house how you want to do your damn house! NPCs are people, too... damnit! If you think we're playing in this regard then you haven't been paying attention to our level of detail and commitment when it comes to creating a REAL WORLD inside of a fantasy setting. That means we don't overlook simple aspects like the fact that an Orc Warlord is going to have a different living environment, different types of allies, different attack patterns, different psychological lore, different EVERYTHING than a corrupted Necromancer Vampire that you don't even take on directly...

Football today so I won't be posting it today but I'll talk to my team about posting them tomorrow and let you know.

Seriously, there are no "basic outlines" for raids outside of "Each raid will have 3 Boss Fight Scenarios" and "Each raid will need AT LEAST 1 tank, 1 DPS, 1 Helaer, 1 CC, and 1 Support" (which WAS at 2 of each role until we hit 12 player raiding and will need to be a bit more lenient on that regard... And that's only so we can keep our promise to keep every single role involved during every single fight.
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