Class Balance

Talk about all things PvP-related.
User avatar
Nekrage
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:03 am

Class Balance

Postby Nekrage » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:33 pm

Hey guys!

I just glanced over at the class discussion section of the forums...seeing all the classes laid out right in front of my eyes kinda scared me a bit.

In my experience the more classes = the more likely that things slip through the cracks and become an unbalanced mess.

I have a lot of faith in the Sacrament team when it comes to balance(and pretty much everything tbh).


I was actually just discussing with my guild how stupidly impossible it is to jump into a MOBA WAY late in the game. Like if a MOBA is released for 3-4 years and you decide to pick it up for the first time, or come back to it after taking a break for a couple of years. The reason I say this is because of the sheer amount of gods/champions/w.e you have to learn in order to play efficiently. You have to know EVERY ability in the game that anyone can throw at you in order to be the best you possibly can be.

I mention this because the class list kinda made me think about the previously mentioned MOBA situation. So, finally getting to my question.

Any chance we will see a small amount of classes added to the game during the beginning testing phases? This way we can test about 8 classes to ensure they are not too OP or too weak?

28 classes thrown in your face at once. Im sorry but there is just NO WAY that classes will not fall through the cracks here. Even the most experienced dev team will miss a few important tweaks that would have been caught if you sorted everything out into smaller groups.

I have a lot of legitimate testing experience when it comes to MMOs so...I like to feel my words have a bit of weight to it.


So long thread short....how are we going to tackle class balance and testing?
Last edited by Nekrage on Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Leader of The Oran'Thul
User avatar
Neosolidus
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Class Balance

Postby Neosolidus » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:10 pm

I also share your concern about too many classes, I think the devs haven't quite grasped the difference between what looks good on paper from what can be actually added to the game within a reasonable window.

Now as far as class balance(at least from seeing their tank info) it seems like they are not going to a 1 v 1 balance but rather a large scale battle balance.

If you look at the comment int he Tank page they say each tank will have their role(dmg mitigation type) which he/she will excel at.

How this will translate to pvp only time will tell.
Is not that I try to be mean, I just don't care to "baby" people's feelings
User avatar
Wykkyd
Founder
Founder
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 2:59 pm

Re: Class Balance

Postby Wykkyd » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:48 pm

Class balance isn't going to be as straight forward in this game as it is in others, since combat in PvE will be predominantly favorable to specific playstyles and roles, by design, on a per-encounter/phase basis. That said, PvE balance's goal is to make all classes and roles viable, and all WILL be from a mathematical sense.

PvP balance will be affected directly by... PvP mechanics only. PvP will not directly affect PvE, and vice versa. Each will be distinct, by design, from day 1. And with reasons (which we can't go into yet). Needless to say, PvP balance will come in many forms and will rely heavily upon PLAYER SKILL to take advantage of the benefits we put in place to offset penalties, etc. Many game companies fall prey to pandering to the masses and rebalancing classes when player group A can't figure out how to counter player group B. We will not fall prey to that trap, and thus won't end up on the same endless chain of rebalancing so many other games do.

All of that said, players are geniuses when it comes to outsmarting "intended use" and "desired play style" and we will never claim to be capable of predicting every possible outcome. There will absolutely be balancing concerns in this game, due to the sheer number of classes if nothing else.

Balancing, while we have a distinctly different approach, is a task that will never conclude. It will be ever changing, and we will never declare the game "balanced". That said, I'm a theorycrafter, min-max player and have spent decades seeking every advantage I can get in dozens of MMOs... all of that will be taken to bear when balancing Sacrament. If I can exploit it, it won't go live. And you can expect me to hire other min-maxers for the same purpose.

There are also mechanics we're planning, and hoping to make real, which we can't divulge yet that will... change the entire way you think about MMO combat. Hell, if I was to mention some of them you'd probably call me crazy... they're simply too complex for modern MMOs. Keep in mind, though, we're building tomorrow's MMO, not today's MMO. Simply put, there are complexities at play, already, that will destroy the modern concept of typical theorycrafting and "cookie cutter" solutions... regardless of balancing passes. I'll let that stew in your brain a bit ;)
User avatar
Nekrage
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:03 am

Re: Class Balance

Postby Nekrage » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:42 pm

Wykkyd wrote:Class balance isn't going to be as straight forward in this game as it is in others, since combat in PvE will be predominantly favorable to specific playstyles and roles, by design, on a per-encounter/phase basis. That said, PvE balance's goal is to make all classes and roles viable, and all WILL be from a mathematical sense.

PvP balance will be affected directly by... PvP mechanics only. PvP will not directly affect PvE, and vice versa. Each will be distinct, by design, from day 1. And with reasons (which we can't go into yet). Needless to say, PvP balance will come in many forms and will rely heavily upon PLAYER SKILL to take advantage of the benefits we put in place to offset penalties, etc. Many game companies fall prey to pandering to the masses and rebalancing classes when player group A can't figure out how to counter player group B. We will not fall prey to that trap, and thus won't end up on the same endless chain of rebalancing so many other games do.

All of that said, players are geniuses when it comes to outsmarting "intended use" and "desired play style" and we will never claim to be capable of predicting every possible outcome. There will absolutely be balancing concerns in this game, due to the sheer number of classes if nothing else.

Balancing, while we have a distinctly different approach, is a task that will never conclude. It will be ever changing, and we will never declare the game "balanced". That said, I'm a theorycrafter, min-max player and have spent decades seeking every advantage I can get in dozens of MMOs... all of that will be taken to bear when balancing Sacrament. If I can exploit it, it won't go live. And you can expect me to hire other min-maxers for the same purpose.

There are also mechanics we're planning, and hoping to make real, which we can't divulge yet that will... change the entire way you think about MMO combat. Hell, if I was to mention some of them you'd probably call me crazy... they're simply too complex for modern MMOs. Keep in mind, though, we're building tomorrow's MMO, not today's MMO. Simply put, there are complexities at play, already, that will destroy the modern concept of typical theorycrafting and "cookie cutter" solutions... regardless of balancing passes. I'll let that stew in your brain a bit ;)


I am a huge min-maxer myself, always crafting builds for every class and explaining why they are superior to other builds. Although in a good MMO there shouldn't be that ONE build that can be claimed as superior...but it happens.

That last paragraph....wow...that is a BOLD statement. "change the entire way you think about MMO combat"...shit, excited to see what you guys have planned. I will do my best to break your game during testing phases so we can get that stuff sorted out :)
Leader of The Oran'Thul
User avatar
Layenem
Founder
Founder
Posts: 533
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 11:59 am

Re: Class Balance

Postby Layenem » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:13 pm

Nekrage wrote:I will do my best to break your game during testing phases so we can get that stuff sorted out :)


Screw try... Devs can't balance because they don't know the system and they don't want people breaking their game...

DESTROY our game during testing! It won't ever be properly balanced if we don't first find the problems!

As far as a large task... Honestly, what isn't? I feel like people have been saying things like "It's just too much to do..." because they don't know how to do it. ESO only had 4 classes and that wasn't balanced for crap so according to that thought we should only have one class and one ability ;)

We know the size of the task we're taking on and that's why we refuse to do it alone... we need every single one of you and not one less. I've seen what three different groups of testers have given as written feedback (Nekrage's book actually being the second largest lol) and with that type of feedback there is no way we can't create a truly balanced game (give or take 5% lol)...

Don't get me wrong... it's scary knowing that so many have failed... The comfort comes in knowing WHY the failed and vowing not to make the same mistakes. SPOILER ALERT: The amount of classes/abilities had nothing to do with why they failed!
Co-Founder and CEO

#ChallengeIsEverything

"To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing." ~ Elbert Hubbard
User avatar
SawJacksoul
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:08 pm
Location: Somewhere far away. Or maybe behind you
Contact:

Re: Class Balance

Postby SawJacksoul » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:21 pm

Wykkyd wrote:Class balance isn't going to be as straight forward in this game as it is in others, since combat in PvE will be predominantly favorable to specific playstyles and roles, by design, on a per-encounter/phase basis. That said, PvE balance's goal is to make all classes and roles viable, and all WILL be from a mathematical sense.

PvP balance will be affected directly by... PvP mechanics only. PvP will not directly affect PvE, and vice versa. Each will be distinct, by design, from day 1. And with reasons (which we can't go into yet). Needless to say, PvP balance will come in many forms and will rely heavily upon PLAYER SKILL to take advantage of the benefits we put in place to offset penalties, etc. Many game companies fall prey to pandering to the masses and rebalancing classes when player group A can't figure out how to counter player group B. We will not fall prey to that trap, and thus won't end up on the same endless chain of rebalancing so many other games do.

All of that said, players are geniuses when it comes to outsmarting "intended use" and "desired play style" and we will never claim to be capable of predicting every possible outcome. There will absolutely be balancing concerns in this game, due to the sheer number of classes if nothing else.

Balancing, while we have a distinctly different approach, is a task that will never conclude. It will be ever changing, and we will never declare the game "balanced". That said, I'm a theorycrafter, min-max player and have spent decades seeking every advantage I can get in dozens of MMOs... all of that will be taken to bear when balancing Sacrament. If I can exploit it, it won't go live. And you can expect me to hire other min-maxers for the same purpose.

There are also mechanics we're planning, and hoping to make real, which we can't divulge yet that will... change the entire way you think about MMO combat. Hell, if I was to mention some of them you'd probably call me crazy... they're simply too complex for modern MMOs. Keep in mind, though, we're building tomorrow's MMO, not today's MMO. Simply put, there are complexities at play, already, that will destroy the modern concept of typical theorycrafting and "cookie cutter" solutions... regardless of balancing passes. I'll let that stew in your brain a bit ;)


I have to agree a lot. There are lots of ways to completely surpass another class that's supposed to be good with some clever thinking. But I think the main point is simple concepts. I don't know all the classes yet but I'm assuming there's gonna be a kind of tank class. Now I doubt this will happen but for example let's just say they can take insanely huge amounts of damage of any kind and also deal it. That to me is just flipping a huge bird to all other classes and would be very OP. Obviously there's ways to beat any good class/player with the right tactics and thinking giving everyone an edge over everyone but it's just things like that that could use testing. So honestly that's all the testing is. Just set it up at what seems reasonable and then test and test and adjust it till it's where you think would be acceptable
~Best regards,
SawJacksoul

Image
User avatar
Nekrage
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:03 am

Re: Class Balance

Postby Nekrage » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:33 am

Layenem wrote:
Nekrage wrote:I will do my best to break your game during testing phases so we can get that stuff sorted out :)


Screw try... Devs can't balance because they don't know the system and they don't want people breaking their game...

DESTROY our game during testing! It won't ever be properly balanced if we don't first find the problems!

As far as a large task... Honestly, what isn't? I feel like people have been saying things like "It's just too much to do..." because they don't know how to do it. ESO only had 4 classes and that wasn't balanced for crap so according to that thought we should only have one class and one ability ;)

We know the size of the task we're taking on and that's why we refuse to do it alone... we need every single one of you and not one less. I've seen what three different groups of testers have given as written feedback (Nekrage's book actually being the second largest lol) and with that type of feedback there is no way we can't create a truly balanced game (give or take 5% lol)...

Don't get me wrong... it's scary knowing that so many have failed... The comfort comes in knowing WHY the failed and vowing not to make the same mistakes. SPOILER ALERT: The amount of classes/abilities had nothing to do with why they failed!


I agree that these terribly unbalanced MMOs such as Warhammer Online(loved the game but.... My god the balance!) fail due to lack of effort and community involvement more than anything.

I can see Sacrement will not fail in that aspect :)

When it comes to testing I do believe focusing on a smaller section of the game during each testing phase would net more....focused and thorough results. I have seen this type of testing work pretty well in the past, less with classes though and more with sections of gameplay such as lvl 1-20 content for these 2 weeks, 21-40 for these 2 weeks and so on and so forth.

Obviously this is way down the line. But hey, just an idea to help narrow down the vast amount of class testing that we need to perform.
Leader of The Oran'Thul

Return to “PvP Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest